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Good day. We here at HG Laboratories do more than invent New and Exciting Products and experiment with Mental Health. We also find ways to just plain Improve The Quality Of Your Life. In this, the first of our Life Improvement Series, we're going to take a look at that age-old way most folks pass their time: Arguing. Now, as a wise man one put it, Arguing is more than the automatic gain saying of the opposite whatever the other person says. It's a mental and verbal game of chess: you present a logical and thought-out point, your opponent counters with his/her well-researched rebuttal, and so forth until finally one person (hopefully the one that's right) proves his point to the other. Well, at least that's the way it would be in a Perfect World. More often than not, the Argument degenerates into a name-calling contest, or worse, an ECW Title Bout. Well, no more, we say! Below, you will see an Argument that we recently studied here in the HG Labs. We present it to you here in it's entirety, unedited and complete. Now, several times during the log, we will interrupt the goings-on to comment on what's being said, done, or implied. What's being done wrong, what's being done correctly, who's presenting their points properly, and all that. Our commentary will be enclosed inside of a colorful box, so that you may easily pick out our helpful suggestions from the ongoing discussion. Finally, when all is said and done, we will have a small overview of the lessons we've learned . Our goal is to hopefully provide Good and Bad Examples of how to participate in an Argument. With the explanations out of the way, let us begin. Session Start: Sun Aug 08 06:16:33 1999 |
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Here we have the 2 participants in our argument: Locdog07 (hereafter called Locdog) and Ironf. The topic of discussion, at least as it starts out, is deciding the authenticity of Locdog's claims that one Erhardt, co-author of the Satellite News, made a disparaging remark about HG Industries. Logdog has already committed grave error Numero Uno: He has betrayed a confidence by repeating the contents of a private conversation to others. |
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Locdog07> Hi |
Mistake #2 has just been made by Locdog: He repeats his cries of innocence over and over. As the Bard once put it "Methinks thou dost protest too much." Also, note the line that ends ".....doesn't mean he likes you.". This is another sign of a person not skilled in arguing: attempting to debate points that have not been made by the other party. |
Ironf> And we should care what he thinks for what reason? |
That grinding noise you hear is Locdog switching discussion gears once again. Mr. Erhardt has been temporarily forgotten by our subjects, as Locdog now changes over to a "Why do you deserve publicity?" argument. Rule 1: Do not move on to a new argument/discussion until you've finished the old one. The "OED Announcement", by the by, is an effort by the HG to get "riff" and possibly "MST" into the Oxford Dictionary. |
Locdog07> Deserve publicity. |
We've run the line "MSTie says lalala!" through our Universal Translators here at HG labs, and for the life of us we cannot figure out just what the hell it means. The closest we came was a guess that it means this: if someone on MST3K said "lalala", would it mean that it should be put in the dictionary? We decided to lay off the booze for the rest of the experiment. Also note the "j/k" line, which is shorthand for "joking". We gave up looking for the "joke" this line refers to after several hours, figuring it got lost in the transmission. |
Locdog07> Anyway, what would be the point? |
If we're reading that "The real deservers.." line properly, we're guessing that Locdog is making the argument that no one who seeks Fame deserves it. Huh. OK. Guess that means that all the Hollywood Casting Offices should be closed, because anyone looking to be a Star obviously doesn't deserve it. By the by, lots of words have been added to the American Lexicon from Entertainment, and no one we've known has complained. Jeep and Goon came from Popeye, Nerd was popularized by Happy Days, and Professional Sports have contributed too many words to list here. And, a quick bit of trivia: Locdog's site, that seems to contain, among other things, fan fiction about himself (as of this writing), is mentioned at SatNews. Is Locdog afraid of a little competition, or just plain Greedy? You decide. |
Ironf> Yes not at all like bragging that they stay up till 4 in the morning to attend a chat with faux-celebrities |
Locdog makes an odd argument, here. He first makes the statement that people who seek Fame don't deserve it, then makes the point here that bragging is a good thing. Isn't bragging just seeking Fame? Or, is he saying that it's Ok to brag about other things, but not this? (whatever "this" is, in his mind). We had begun to suspect that the problem wasn't the transmission of the argument to the labs. |
Ironf> I didn't put that forth, but when one wants to call something else freakish, they need to examine themselves beforehand |
And the name-calling escalates. For the record, Ironf does say "suuuure he did" but does not say "uh-huh". Locdog also makes his "...doesn't mean he likes you" point before that line, so he was as responsible for continuing the conversation as Ironf was. This is a good place for Rule 2: Quote Accurately, and never Lie. Of note: Ironf makes 2 excellent points here; Keeping MST3K's cancellation in perspective (It's only a TV show..), and questioning Locdog's motives in reporting Erhardt's supposed statement. |
Locdog07> Same as how you guys did with the simple request of thinking about British MSTies when you guys see the season finale. |
Locdog commits another couple of mistakes here: One, he temporarily gives up. Then, in a whiplash-inducing moment, switches conversation gears once again. A third mistake, in his last line, is the implication that he's losing the argument due to some personal troubles. Rule 3: Argue fairly. Don't bring personal lives into it, unless that's what the argument is about. |
Ironf> I didn't instigate the conversation, so anything I do from that point on is simply reply |
Oy, where do we start? Locdog once again switches gears (at this rate he's going to go through a transmission every six months) and breaks another cardinal rule. Rule 4: Don't refer to past arguments unless they pertain to a germane point. Ironf plays along, even asking Locdog to cite examples to prove his point. Locdog refuses. Point to Ironf. A good time to refer to Rule 5: Cite Examples to back up your point(s). |
Ironf> No, I said in the beginning, he had a valid point, once he got off on his English rant, I only asked about the king/queen |
Here the past argument has not only been mentioned, it's been resurrected. Another Violation of Rule 4. Mr. Erhardt might wish to partake of our Rest and Recreation Area while he waits to be brought up again. Take note of the "reading comprehension" line used by Ironf: It ends up being repeated by Locdog like a mantra. And just what kind of point is Locdog trying to make with his "Define "all"" line? Dammit, someone go outside and check that damn antenna again.... |
Locdog07> Oh, yes, why do those Third World country children die...they should just move over here and be fine! That's not valid. |
We warned you about the reading comprehension line. A half-point for Locdog: he realizes he was wrong about Ironf on a point of contention, and admits it. And he sticks to that contention, at least for the next few lines. Locdog's metaphor about food and kids brings up Rule 6: Repeating a point ad nauseum does not make it more correct (You'll see why in the next few stanzas). By the by, in order to avoid accusations that we've "doctored" this log, all typos have been left in place. |
Ironf> But, I didn't say that myself, so I don't need you putting words into my mouth |
Even thought we'd sworn off the booze temporarily, one of the researchers suggested we make a Drinking Game out of LocDog's repetition of Ironf's "reading comprehension" line. You know the type, where you take a drink every time a certain event occurs? We quickly decided we'd all be dead of alcohol poisoning long before we finished this session. Another half-point to Locdog for once again realizing he misspoke about something, and retracting it with an apology attached. This showcases Rule 7: Taking a phrase or point the other person made and tossing it in their faces repeatedly is Not Arguing. |
Ironf> yes, but that's when it's in the context of a relativly well off person that's upset because they can't get a tv show, not when it's people in a third world country |
We here in the HG Labs read and reread this section several times before deciding that, yes, Locdog is claiming that Britain lacking MST is almost exactly like India lacking food or Pakistan lacking hospitals. Perhaps Willie Nelson can get a bunch of singers together and have a MSTie-Aid Concert. Locdog's small tantrum above also gives us the chance to bring up Rule 8: Just because someone disagrees with you, it does not mean they're an idiot. The following sections also show Locdog violating Rule 9: If someone thoroughly and completely disproves your point, give it up. |
Locdog07> Okay, let's alter it a littlke |
Locdog thusly begins the long, slow walk into Nonsense. Finally latching onto a point for more than a dozen lines, he heroically stands against Logic to press forward the point that Lack Of MST3K is somehow The Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. Another point goes to Ironf here, for quoting Locdog's sentence that makes the implication that Locdog agreed with his point. Locdog proceeds to backpedal here, making the argument that the metaphor works, yet doesn't. It does seem that Locdog agrees with Ironf's point for a second, then realizes he's contradicted himself and shifts into reverse. |
Ironf> and I'm saying you put up or shut up. Get to it or quit crying. |
Light dawns! Locdog makes yet another near-fatal mistake: Instead of admitting he doesn't know what "put up or shut up" means exactly, he perceives it as a personal attack and makes one of his own (If you even knew that I was going to America in 11 days, you'd not have said that). He drags the reading comprehension line out again, argues that Ironf (and who knows what else) may be suppressing his Freedom Of Speech, and proclaims something about Ironf's "put up or shut up" not being a proper metaphor. And then comes one of the most remarkable lines we at HG Labs have ever heard: "You can't say they're metaphors and just forget them." Forget what? Who said forget something? We suppose it has something to do with his "MST3K is the Manna of Life" argument, but deciphering his side of the argument is beginning to compare to doing a Rubik's Cube blindfolded using one foot. And, just as a side note: just because something happens in real life doesn't mean you can't use the situation as a metaphor. Like comparing something to Third World Food Crises. |
Locdog07> I thought put up meant make do with something. |
Why do we have this mental picture of Locdog as Dr. Smith, sobbing "The Pain! The Pain!"? Good thing Locdog doesn't live in the US, because he could sue the Sci-Fi channel for Pain and Suffering. |
Ironf> Those are the ones that need to "get a life" as Shatner put it. |
Locdog gets a Warning Card, here. Several documentaries and interviews (and we don't think they were all staged) with Mr. Shatner have shown that, while the SNL folks *did* write the sketch, it was reportedly Shatner who gave the writers the original idea. Also, give yourself 50 bonus points if you can remember just what Locdog's original point was without scrolling back up to the top of the page. |
Ironf> The point of the matter is, get over it. If you don't like missing a show, quit crying and do something about it. |
Several points of order, here: Ironf makes an effort to get the argument back on track, but Locdog continues with his Shatner lecture. Another point is that while Shatner does love Trek, his message was that the drooling fanboys that sit in dark rooms memorizing reams of trivial details about the show should Get A Life. Locdog also makes another of his 2-headed points: He praises Shatner for his love of the Trek Phenomenon, but then reams him for his singing and acting. Nice. |
Ironf> Still the point put forth is to simply get a life. It's a television show. They come and go. Get over it. |
"If your own son, your own son for God's sake...." Too bad this argument took place too late to qualify for any Oscar or Emmy nominations, huh? Locdog finally backtracks to an earlier, still-unresolved point. Not the original one, but an earlier point nonetheless. Half-point awarded for the attempt, no matter what the motive. However, a full point to Ironf for turning Locdog's point back on him with his "Young Ones" line. We also, at this point, see the flowering of the idea that Locdog planted several hundred lines ago: that any perceived weakness or oddness is due to Locdog possibly being Mentally Ill. |
Locdog07> Okay, seperate metaphor. Don't complain till I'm done. |
"I don't see a blade of grass when I look at a blade of grass" Ah. Thanks for the update. Point #1: Locdog finally begins to admit that he's really, really obsessed over MST3K. Point #2: The childish name-calling on Locdog's part continues. Almost sounds to us like that old Sit-Com chestnut "I don't call people names, you frigging idiot!". Point #3: We begin the subject that will be one of the main Points of Order for the rest of the discussion: That people without MST3K are somehow a mentally-disadvantaged Minority, and those of us with MST3K should be ashamed of ourselves for chuckling over the show while he and his fellow British MSTies fall deeper into MSTiecus Deprivicus. We'd like to note that we object to Locdog's trivialization of the Truly Mentally Ill, comparing their suffering to his pouting over not having his favorite TV show. (Does this mean people in Third World countries who cry about the lack of food and medicine are, in fact, just Mentally Ill?) Point #4: We here at the HG do not Giggle. We Titter. Point #5: One has to wonder who should be paranoid about who, here. At the time this took place, Ironf and his 2 compatriots were in an Invisible channel, discussing Maintenance on both the MST-Homegame channel and on the HG Industries Website. Thus, in order to find Ironf, who was *not* on the main Homegame channel, Locdog had to do a /whois on him to track him down. Yet, Locdog goes on as though this were some sort of planned-out Total HG Assault on him. (You almost start to wonder if Locdog has ever sent any letters to Jodie Foster). And finally, Point #6: There are NO, repeat, NO "bosses", "leader" "tyrants" or whatever at HG Industries. And Locdog, who starts to reach the point where he can't remember what he typed 5 lines ago, seems to agree. Notice how he accuses Ironf of being a Svengali, hypnotizing the world against Locdog, but then several lines later says Ironf isn't "the boss of anyone". Uh, sure. OK. |
Ironf> I'm not insulting all msties, I'm just saying I have no use for ones that make a show the center of thier lives |
First off, half-point again to Locdog: most common dictionaries probably do not define expressions. His paranoid rants continue, along with what seems to be an inability to understand common expressions (You're not here to use people!!). And just what does the line "perhaps you're each the boss of each other" mean? A bit of latent Homophobic Projection, perhaps? Never Acceptable Behavior. It takes several lines once again for Ironf to drag Locdog kicking and screaming back to the current subject, which is differentiating the Mentally Ill from Obsessed Fans. It does take a while, as Locdog has found a new obsession: The idea that people are sitting around laughing at him. And, take a look at the line where Ironf quotes Locdog's "Illness of the mind" line, and Locdog once again backpedals from logic with a "That's not what I meant!" defense. |
Locdog07> Mentally ill doesn't mean you're lying on the floor drooling. It can mean that, yes, but doesn't have to be that bad. |
Again, Locdog repeats another Rule Violation: Making a play for sympathy by claiming to have Some Sort Of Problem, in this case having Clinical Depression. He pauses to take yet another shot at the Homegame (Rule 10: You do not have ESP, and you do not know what people are thinking/doing/saying in a place you cannot get input from.), then makes yet another point that will Live In Infamy: That shedding a tear makes one "mentally ill". Well, I'm sure everyone who has ever gotten the sniffles at the end of "Old Yeller" or cried at the funeral of a loved one will be happy to know that they can begin collecting Disability Payments now. And how cold and unfeeling of Locdog to imply Depressed people sit on the floor, whacked out and giggling. Final quick point, here; notice Locdog has presented no solution of any sort to his Lack-Of-MST3K problem. |
Ironf> Now you're hypocritical for trying to change me when you didn't like that I was making suggestions to you. |
And, another 50 bonus points to the person who can explain how a group that gets more new members everyday, a group with diversified interests, points of view, political and social beliefs, and educational levels can be called "One Group Body Isolated". Perhaps he's confusing the HomeGame with an experience he had elsewhere. Locdog also has once again come down with Convenient Memory Loss: he claims not to know who brought up the "crying" point. This introduces Rule 11: Be a Man. If you've made a mistake/bad point/bad argument, admit it and move on. Locdog also continues his point that Ironf is some unfeeling robot because he doesn't agree with Locdog's view of the World. And, please take note of the line where Locdog claims to never reach any incorrect solutions. Could someone hook us up with his phone number so we can get the recipe for Cold Fusion, the Cure for all Diseases, and Tomorrow's Lottery Numbers? |
Locdog07> Besides, if what a person wants is bad for everyone else, no power should go to them. |
Hope you got a 6-pack when you went for that cold one, because we're taking another Big Time Out here. First Point: The argument should have defaulted to Ironf at this point, because Locdog violates Godwin's Law. Godwin's Law reads as follows: An argument, whether on IRC, a Newsgroup, or what have you, is automatically over when one participant of an argument calls or compares the other participant(s) to Hitler or a Nazi. For the record, there are plenty of historians that agree that Hitler was, at some times in his life, a Genius. An Evil, Sick, Twisted Genius, but a Genius. Second Point: Locdog dances around the "mentally ill" point again, making the ridiculous claim that Ironf brought the whole subject up. Just for the record, scroll back and see who makes the comparison between Deprived MST3K Fans and the Mentally Ill. Another violation of the rule we mention just one Discussion Box up. We here at HG Labs lost our professionalism and fell into hysterics at one line here: When Locdog says Ironf will one day "Look back and realize how he wasted his life". Locdog is claiming to be Mentally Deficient because of a Puppet Show, and is spending almost 3 hours crying to a stranger about it, and *Ironf* has wasted his life? Finally, Locdog's last few lines bring us to Rule 12: Typo-pouncing and language lessons during a discussion are considered Bad Form and Desperation. |
Ironf> <Locdog07> I said if crying about a show was mentally ill then I was mentally ill I'm not arguing that you aren't. In other words, I agree that you are. |
Oy. Let's take these points in some sort of Order. |
Ironf> What factual evidence have you put forth? |
Uh, what? Never changed the subject? Are you trying to tell us, Mr. Locdog, that this whole conversation started out as a discussion of Nazi Attitudes toward the Mentally Ill? What about Mr. Erhardt? What about the lack of MST3K in Britain? What about the HomeGame as On-Line Militia? Even Alt.Cascade would have called a conversation containing this many Plot Changes to a screeching halt about 3000 lines ago. Finally, what's with the "Bag Ladies. Fantasy of yours?" line? Is Locdog taking a poll to test interest in a Alt.Binaries.Pictures.Erotica.Bag-Ladies newsgroup? Put us down for a "No, thanks" vote. |
Ironf> I'm a nazi now because I believe that a person should stop crying and try to do something about it. Well Heil Hitler! |
And the conversation laps itself! Everyone wave hello to Mr. Erhardt as we drive by! Once more into the breech, dear friends, as we take this point by point.... |
Ironf> I said why should I care what he says |
Ok, we have to honestly ask: does Locdog actually remember anything he types? Note these 2 lines... |
Ironf> Not really, no. I didn't start the argument, so I feel no need to win it. |
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Bear with us here, folks. Let's clean up a few points before the summarization.... |
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Ok, so what have we learned from our dissection of the above conversation? We've learned the First 12 Rules of having a Good, Intelligent Argument. We've learned what Mental Illness is *not*. We've learned that some people toss the "Nazi" word around with absolutely no concept of what it really stands for. And, we guess, we've learned that different countries have different TV Programs and Schedules. What we here at HG Labs hope you take away from this, and other parts of the Life Improvement Series, is this: Life is a Precious Gift. However, Life is a Heartless Bitch, and will drill you in the shorts every chance it gets. Learn to deal with it like an Adult. Thank you. |
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And the final score, adjusted for Penalties, Yellow flags and such... |
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Ironf has thus qualified for the semifinals. |
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Another fine service provided by HG-Ultra. We now return to our regularly scheduled Mind Experiments. |
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